FirstLoveMovies

goku33 wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:51 pm To me, „Sara“ is in the middle or both: full on nudity while having fairly intense sense (the scene with Boguslaw behind her even though it’s very Short).

Sara, it doesn't seem to be in this category, you can only see several topless but nothing more, in its place I put El sueño de Tanger despite the interesting thing happening off screen.

Triela wrote: Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:15 am
To me, „Sara“ is in the middle or both: full on nudity while having fairly intense sense (the scene with Boguslaw behind her even though it’s very Short).

Funny. To me „Sara“ is the most explicit, most daring of the 3. While there around a thousand mainstream and arthouse movies featuring underage girl nudity, there aren't so much films that have 13-15 year olds doing erotic and/or lovemaking scenes. maybe 10? Fruhreifen report, Piccole Labbra, L'immoraralita, some Lara Wendel movies? Reifezeugnis (1977)
Der Tanzstunden-Report (1973) and Bademeister-Report (1973) are sexploitation might be seen as soft porn. With a 15 year old but still.
…

But thats just cause most if not all critics were older males. I wanna bet femaie critics would have felt differently about it.
To older men, the plot of a 14 year old falling in love with her step father would seem plausible, but then again, Freud came up with the ridiculous concept of "penis envy" too
Nevertheless, I've heard about 3 cases of teacher-with-pupil, two from people who were there, in class or in school and one i merely read about that one.
So, it does happen, it just isn't all that plausible.
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I mean it’s France, whose current president got groomed by his 40yo teacher (whose daughter was one of his classmates) when he was 15-16yo and now Emmanuel Macron is literally married to that woman.

So it can happen to both genders

I do think it’s plausible that a 14yo falls in Love with her step father or teacher but that’s just regular puberty issues..we look up to someone or fantasize about someone etc. - I remember one female teacher in Highschool always smiling at me etc. but while teenage me thought „hey maybe she finds me attractive“ to her I most likely was just another of her favorite students.. (it can seem like flirting sometimes when you smile at each other and look into each other eyes).

What’s more „problematic“ about Beau Pere‘s story is that the protagonist Remy completely fell for her, he was kind of a weak/creepy character from the beginning. He Just had to decide what’s more important to him..her healthy development or his own lust & desires.. it is clear she was just looking for safety/intimacy after loosing her mother. (Plus having daddy issues since her birth father was kind of absent/a stranger). I sometimes wish they had not killed the mothers character that early on to give it more meaning. Sorry-wise, The mother AND her death felt almost like a prop just to get her into Remy‘s bed as quick as possible. We didn’t learn anything about if or how close mother and daughters relation was..

Re: Sara (1997)
The sexual/erotic confidence of Agnieszka was just very unique. Her lingerie scenes alone would have already been Epic enough. (Even those scenes you wouldn’t see in new films nowadays anymore). A 15Yo seductively stripping sexy for a 40yo guy.

Personally, I’m not even in the boat of people screaming for more/new nudity in today’s productions. Simply give me authenticity and deal with intimacy Things. „tiger milk“ (2017) was alright in that regard!

goku33 wrote: Sat Dec 09, 2023 3:41 pm I mean it’s France, whose current president got groomed by his 40yo teacher (whose daughter was one of his classmates) when he was 15-16yo and now Emmanuel Macron is literally married to that woman.

Calling it "grooming" .... That's a bit silly, a lot... you're denying him agency(=free will). He could have gotten out of that relationship anytime he wanted. Just look at Hollywood where there quite a few relationships where the woman is 16 years older... Kutcher+Moore, Aaron "Kick-Ass" Johnson, Naveen Andrews with both Geraldine Feakins (he was 16) ánd Barbara Hershey (21 years older), Alfred Molina with Jill Gascoine etc.

I do think it’s plausible that a 14yo falls in Love with her step father or teacher but that’s just regular puberty issues

having the hots for him, sure, remember Laura Robson and Marat Safin? But the girl acting on it? That is purely an older male fantasy.

What’s more „problematic“ about Beau Pere‘s story is that the protagonist Remy completely fell for her, he was kind of a weak/creepy character from the beginning.

I really disagree. I truly can not blame Remy for what he did. And you remember it wrong: He tried to resist, but in the end, the lure of the siren was too strong.
Also, being attracted to a 15 year old does not make someone creepy. What kind of man can resist a 15 year old? I mean, he can restrain himself to not acting on it, because ... reasons.

But I highly doubt he's not attracted to her. Not while virtually ALL our present beauty ideals are centered on 15 year old girls: the flawless skin, the skinny body, the small breasticles etc. etc. All women try their best to resemble 15 year olds. Not 30 year olds. Some men might wax lyrical about those wrinkles around the eyes, or big butts like Nicki Minaj, but most actresses and models realize they work more if they don't have wrinkles and have a 14 year olds buttocks. A 14 year old boy, not even a 14 year old girl.

He Just had to decide what’s more important to him..her healthy development or his own lust & desires.

But doesn't he choose the first option, eventually? Personally, a girl I slept with once told me she lost her virginity at 14 to a 27 year old guy. And that was consensual. She was a kind of a big corporate executive with a 'normal' family life, so i'm inclined to think her development was 'healthy', whatever that means.

it is clear she was just looking for safety/intimacy after loosing her mother.

Whoa, that's not "clear", that is merely YOUR interpretation of it. Yes, the movie might have gained if they shown some kind of competition between mother and daughter for Remy's attention before the mother died, but IMnsHO, they did a good job of making Ariels attraction to him and affection for him an independent thing.

Triela wrote: Sun Dec 10, 2023 8:56 am …

Calling it "grooming" .... That's a bit silly, a lot... you're denying him agency(=free will). He could have gotten out of that relationship anytime he wanted. Just look at Hollywood where there quite a few relationships where the woman is 16 years older... Kutcher+Moore, Aaron "Kick-Ass" Johnson, Naveen Andrews with both Geraldine Feakins (he was 16) ánd Barbara Hershey (21 years older), Alfred Molina with Jill Gascoine etc.

You’re loosing me when you compare Kutcher+Moore to a 16yo and her 30yo step-father. The younger examples exist but like you said..it’s Hollywood - known for inappropriate relationships (same with rockstars: Steven Tyler literally adopted a teenager with her parents consent she could come on his tour and f*ck with him).

Remember Hollywood (Meryl Streep, Natalie Portman..) wrote a letter to let Roman Polanski, the guy who drugged and raped a 13yo girl, back into the US/Hollywood.

Do you not look back at your own youth and often think „wow..I was so inexperienced/naive in that regard“ ?

Yes, I guess we have very different opinions on the topic of Agency, grooming:

He could have gotten out of that relationship anytime he wanted

That’s the exact issue with grooming (and relationships with wrong power balance). Sure, he might not even see himself as a victim or having been groomed but don’t we agree on the fact that as a teenager your brain isn’t fully developed yet? (Which happens until around 25yo). And that a fully grown adult has so much more life, relationship, people experience compared to a teenager?

I really disagree. I truly can not blame Remy for what he did. And you remember it wrong: He tried to resist, but in the end, the lure of the siren was too strong.

What kind of man can resist a 15 year old? I mean, he can restrain himself to not acting on it, because ... reasons.

As you said yourself: free will. If he can’t resist, he apparently doesn’t have actual free will himself?

(I’m not disagreeing with you about attraction towards a 15yo. I think for many men a girl like Laura Mattel in „Le Surdoue“ would be not attractive because she looked really young & tiny, child-like but girls like

Ariel in „Beau Pere“
Agnieszka in „Sara“
Marie Gillain in „Mon pere Ce Heros“
Katherine Heigl in „My Father the hero“

would be attractive to most men because they look like young woman (teenagers) with developed bodies (or the start of it).

But doesn't he choose the first option, eventually? Personally, a girl I slept with once told me she lost her virginity at 14 to a 27 year old guy. And that was consensual. She was a kind of a big corporate executive with a 'normal' family life, so i'm inclined to think her development was 'healthy', whatever that means.

Yes, eventually he does. But first he fell for the moods/lusts of a teenage girl.

I have listened to many podcasts and interviews with p0rnstars and many of them tell stories of having Been a teenager and looked up to some 25-30yo guy who already had his own car etc. and who took their virginity but in retrospective most of them feel like they’ve been taken advantage of (due to their youth/naivety/inexperience).

I remember one of my female friends in high school also looking up to some older guy a few years/classes ahead of us and some years later girls like her look back at that phase with cringe and often thing „wow that guy only was with me because he couldn’t get with girls his age that weren’t naive/easy fo manipulate anymore“.

Whoa, that's not "clear", that is merely YOUR interpretation of it. Yes, the movie might have gained if they shown some kind of competition between mother and daughter for Remy's attention before the mother died, but IMnsHO, they did a good job of making Ariels attraction to him and affection for him an independent thing.

But the story IS formed/based around the mother’s death. As far as I know, The movie doesn’t give ANY hints at all that her affection & attraction towards him was an independent thing or existing before the mother’s death. (My memory could be wrong)

You think Ariel would have made her moves even with the mother still living?

goku33 wrote: Sun Dec 10, 2023 2:50 pm You’re loosing me when you compare Kutcher+Moore to a 16yo and her 30yo step-father.

losing.... That's not the comparison I made, that's the one you made. At least, you wanted to demonstrate the French are weird (like any Deutschsprachige should.... by telling me, look 32 year old man with a 14 year old girl, they're depraved BECAUSE ... Macron. My response was (a) Macron isn't such a rare case, because ... well-known actors etc. and (b) Macron can hardly be called a victim without will, since he's a man, so both physically as moneywise as status wise, he's "stronger" than his wife, a teacher. It's love, rare, but not odder than all those black and brown football players with German Fathers.... Rüdiger, Schlupp, anyone?

Hollywood - known for inappropriate relationships (same with rockstars: Steven Tyler literally adopted a teenager with her parents consent she could come on his tour and f*ck with him).

Yaaaah... no. inappropiate relations exist everywhere, but about those in Hollywood, we know. We diss them cos it makes us feel like less of a loser.

Remember Hollywood (Meryl Streep, Natalie Portman..) wrote a letter to let Roman Polanski, the guy who drugged and raped a 13yo girl, back into the US/Hollywood.

Statue of limitations?

Do you not look back at your own youth and often think „wow..I was so inexperienced/naive in that regard“ ?

Yes, but not to the extent that I think: Ooh, if my 50 kg, 1.55m arts teacher had seduced me, I would be a willingless victim in her hands.

He could have gotten out of that relationship anytime he wanted

That’s the exact issue with grooming (and relationships with wrong power balance).

There is VERY little wrong power balance in that relationship: On most if not all measures he's has the BETTER of that balance than her: Status, Money, Youth, attractiveness, physical.
I truly fail to see how that makes him a victim.

don’t we agree on the fact that as a teenager your brain isn’t fully developed yet? (Which happens until around 25yo).

We do. But that isn't to say all teens are complete idiots until that age. Even at 14=15 teens make rational decisions adults would too. They can't stick to planning, but they don't take SOOOOO much more risks than we do. Its a gradual thing.

As you said yourself: free will. If he can’t resist, he apparently doesn’t have actual free will himself?

Sure, i see what you mean. This goes both ways, since you claim Macron had no free will, but Remy does? IDK but when puthy is concerned, brains go out the window.

I think for many men a girl like Laura Mattel in „Le Surdoue“ would be not attractive because she looked really young & tiny, child-like but girls like

Ariel in „Beau Pere“
Agnieszka in „Sara“
Marie Gillain in „Mon pere Ce Heros“
Katherine Heigl in „My Father the hero“

To me, she's exactly of the same maturity as the others, Agniezka has bigger B's so...

BYes, eventually he does. But first he fell for the moods/lusts of a teenage girl.

Which was kind of the point of the whole movie: An exploration of could we resist that, and would we do the "right" thing.
Which depends on your social group. Middle Class West Germany... very different from Utah...

I remember one of my female friends in high school also looking up to some older guy a few years/classes ahead of us and some years later girls like her look back at that phase with cringe and often thing „wow that guy only was with me because he couldn’t get with girls his age that weren’t naive/easy fo manipulate anymore“.

For every relationship type there's a feeling of "what did I EVERRRRR see in him or her"

But the story IS formed/based around the mother’s death. As far as I know, The movie doesn’t give ANY hints at all that her affection & attraction towards him was an independent thing or existing before the mother’s death. (My memory could be wrong) You think Ariel would have made her moves even with the mother still living?

Yes, the mothers death is the set up for the story. If we accept that, then it's unlikely she would have fallen for him if she had not died. But this seems beside the point.
The point is Remy's dilemma, and to show that we are all human, and inclined to be seduced by the situation
He's a round character, not flat, because he struggles and he grows.
It's his male PoV which is most important, not hers.

Triela wrote: Sun Dec 10, 2023 4:49 pm but they don't take SOOOOO much more risks than we do. Its a gradual thing.

I think we had both a very different youth with very different friends & surroundings. Many of my friends were like the kids in the Film „Kids“ and took a lot of drugs early on but now in their 20s, 30s many of them have very boring/ordinary life’s (aside from some of them having long lasting side effects from the drugs like psychosis and other mental Health issues).

Most teens feel invincible, immortal (and it’s true you will never have as much Energy and physical growth again in your life). I had a high school sports teacher that always said the human body basically peaks at 17yo and from then on it’s just decline (although I think he might have even wrong there cause many MMA (mixed martial arts) fighters reach their physical prime around 28-32. mid 30s they start to decline (speed & reactions modtly).

I do not agree with you *at all* about the Macron case. and I find it very weird that You would even say he had (more) power in that relationship (why even bring up the physical aspect? This was never about her physically pressuring him or not letting him go).

She was an educator, person of authority and literally in charge/power of the class and students. Her own kid was one of his classmates.

goku33 wrote: Sun Dec 10, 2023 5:29 pmI think we had both a very different youth with very different friends & surroundings. Many of my friends were like the kids in the Film „Kids“

I agree, none of my friends were like that. And my childhood was pretty uneventful. What does this have to do with Macron and Beau-pére? Puzzled, I'm sure.

I had a high school sports teacher that always said the human body basically peaks at 17yo

The first ever report on sexuality, the Shere Hite report, said that males peak sexually at 17 and females at 35, so in that respect, mrs. Macron is a woman with excellent timing (Personally, I managed to look 17 for 20 years, and i (ab)used that abundantly, but I digress)

She was an educator, person of authority and literally in charge/power of the class and students. Her own kid was one of his classmates.

First off, she was a teacher, a group of people which even Spectacoolär correctly identified as 'nur hoffnungslose Statisten' and second, unless you believe the rumours, she never abused her position of authority. And I don't subscribe to the notion that teen boys are damaged if they boink their teachers, especially when their 17 or older. Even at age 13, I highly doubt there's emotional damage. The damage occurs when the teens are slut shamed by society, which happens with girls 100%, but with zero percent of the boys, the majority of their friends, and of all men see them as cool, if not outright heroes. That's totally different for girls.

I do not agree with you *at all* about the Macron case. and I find it very weird that You would even say he had (more) power in that relationship (why even bring up the physical aspect?

Because it seems unlikely that someone who is physically much stronger, is a victim. Especially when its highly unlikely there was psychological terrorisation.

Triela wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2023 2:15 pm

goku33 wrote: Sun Dec 10, 2023 5:29 pmI think we had both a very different youth with very different friends & surroundings. Many of my friends were like the kids in the Film „Kids“

I agree, none of my friends were like that. And my childhood was pretty uneventful. What does this have to do with Macron and Beau-pére? Puzzled, I'm sure.

It was me trying to say that in my experience teenagers are indeed much more impulsive, dumb, naive than we are when we reach our mid 20s.

Because it seems unlikely that someone who is physically much stronger, is a victim

Thousands of men worldwide are physically stronger than their female partners but are victims of domestic abuse from their wife.

But most people don’t understand the topic and just say „why didn’t you just leave?“ „why didn’t you just defend yourself?“. It’s much more complex Than that.

Tedious and off-topic text-walls of wind-baggery.

It's true that the discussion has ranged far from this particular movie. I had a hard time figuring out exactly what the "topic" WAS. I took my best guess so that it can continue in a more appropriate thread.