[REL] ...Is It the Design on the Wrapper? (1997) short [UK]

[pillowbaker]

Fantastic, Night! Thanks. I figured out a couple more lines ("waiting for someone to cross me") and they were exactly like yours. Great job with Mr. Crocodile. And "Can't whistle with the finger, either", brilliant work.

With "Julie like Sanjay", I figured it was a boy she was referring to, one that she liked, but who likes another girl better. But I keep hearing Julie. It's likely just one of her girl friends who became besties with another instead. Anyways, I like the way she snarls out PRETTY.

I did use whisper, like ghost suggested, to get an easy outline of timings. It did pretty well figuring out what was being spoke, too! Subs upcoming.

Edit: I think it got it! It's SANDRA. Julie likes Sandra better. (whisper might have helped with that one)

[pillowbaker]

Subtitles are done!

Many thanks go to Night. Whatever you say about your eyes, your ears are critically discerning. I timed them (the subs) for the higher resolution file. Just have to turn the volume up a little. Posted below.

My second favorite part is where she breaks down fake-crying in order to elicit sympathy and incite the growing mob against the poor innocent woman. What a mean little girl!

What a dubious view of the little girl! You think she was encouraging the mob of people to torment the lady? Were they fake tears, too? (they technically probably were) By the end, I felt bad for the poor bubblegum lady!

Night, you ARE right about her derpy muppet voice when she's imitating the concerned man. It is so good.

I liked, in a cinematic appreciation way, how much the girl is manhandled by her mother. Yanking her by the arm and grabbing her by the head, all the while she's sticking her head through rails and climbing on stuff.

As the short goes on, it's hilarious how fruit and gum start falling on the ground, everywhere, and getting run over by the truck and stepped in.

I tried to preserve a few small aspects of her accent, with her abbreviated words, dropped pronouns and conjunctions. I considered using quotation marks, but I was afraid it would look cluttered. Let me know if you think they should go in. And I tried to go easy on the ellipses. Sometimes it's hard not to shovel them in, when, when, the speakers are, errr. I don't want to leave any crumbs out which would attract The Ellipsicabra.


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[Night457]

Long discussion about the dialog and subtitles:

Spoiler: Great job with Mr. Crocodile. The ONLY thing I could hear clearly in that sentence was "crocodile" and "it", and I constructed the rest with the help of Google, not knowing the game! And "Can't whistle with the finger, either", brilliant work. I did not believe that one myself, but half a day later I can actually hear it. That is one of her most mushmouth lines, and she elides pronunciation of multiple consonants. I spent alot of time WATCHING her, to try to figure out her demonstration of what she can NOT do! Ohhhhh!! Julie likes Sandra better. YES! I know "Sanjay" is a boy's name, but it did not make much sense to me that Julie would like Sanjay better because "she" (Julie) is pretty. She is a spoiled pretty girl, obsessed with her looks, so she finds herself suddenly interested in boys because they are macking on her? No, that is a real stretch of illogic there. I thought your interpretation of one girl switching her female friends made far more sense, but I could not come up with a NAME that fit. Worse yet, there is NO EXPRESSION about liking something "better than ducks" but that is all I could hear! Ducks are pretty awesome, but I am not about to invent an English expression and put it in the mouth of an English girl from 26 years ago. So I REALLY needed your final line with: "better, and that's"!! Now I can actually hear it proper, like. Whatever you say about your eyes, your ears are critically discerning. It is all those afternoons after high school falling asleep listening to Black Sabbath on the HiFi, I guess. I've also watched alot of British movies and telly, struggling to understand the accents. You think she was encouraging the mob of people to torment the lady? Were they fake tears, too? Are you trolling me? She was not upset at all! She was annoyed at being pestered by questions and saw an opportunity to get revenge, delighted all the while! The gleeful grin she has when she recounts the potentially thuggish fella noticing her being "bovvered" tells it all. As you noted, her parents are less than gentle, and she likely knows her neighbors are much the same. That lady is in the WRONG neighborhood. By the end, I felt bad for the poor bubblegum lady! Me too, especially because she is probably herself a lower-class girl who got a little education and learned to talk "right", now struggling to better herself with what HAS to be a horrible job. Still, I am myself entirely antagonistic toward pollsters, so technically my sympathies are REALLY with the girl. If some random stranger asks my opinion about something, I instantly turn cold. None of yer damn business, mate. It is the greatest stretch of my civility when this occurs in an unsolicited phone call: I have to be clear that I don't want them to call again, but courteous enough not to annoy them into repeatedly calling back just to get revenge against me for making THEIR day difficult. Of course more often now it is a computer initiating the conversation, so it is more difficult to reason with those. I tried to preserve a few small aspects of her accent, with her abbreviated words, dropped pronouns and conjunctions. I agree with that, to a certain extent, such as when she says " 'cause " instead of " because ". Writers like Mark Twain could go overboard with spelling words like they were pronounced, to sometimes hilarious effect. (Like in Huck Finn.) But he was a genius and a brilliant writer, and we just want to make subtitles that are easy to read whether someone is a native English speaker or not. I know in my post I said "bovvering" because that is how she pronounced it and it amused me, but you are totally right with CORRECTLY spelling it "bothering" in the subtitle. I considered using quotation marks, but I was afraid it would look cluttered. I think it is generally best to try to avoid them in subtitles unless absolutely necessary, such as when one person is directly quoting another in a single subtitle line. Made-up example: He says to me, "Why don't you PISS OFF!?" I know that SubtitleEdit likes to attempt to correct the use of quotes in separated subtitle lines in a way that does NOT fit how they would be used in a published book with continuous dialog, and it drives me nuts. It is usually better to leave them out, as long as the meaning is clear. Upon due consideration, for the subtitle I would OMIT using them in And when we play "What's the Time, Mr. Crocodile?", I'm always IT! even though that is how I typed it in the first place. They are not needed. I think I would leave the name of the game with initial capitals as is, however. Like: And when we play What's the Time, Mr. Crocodile, I'm always IT! I think. What you fink, eh? Even if you agree, there is no need to edit the subtitle file! It is just a thought I thunk. And I tried to go easy on the ellipses. Good idea. I have read published "rules" on proper subtitle creation. Some of them seem arbitrary but most are quite sensible. There is a rule on when ellipses are acceptable, and I know that I often broke that rule in my translations. I have to force myself to not overuse them. THANK YOU very much! I have not read your end result in its entirety and certainly have not watched it with the short, because I was excited to respond right away. But in bits and pieces I can see how you corrected and improved upon what I THOUGHT I heard, and I found myself thinking "Oh yeah, that is actually what she said." Final questions: Whisper helped with the subtitle structure, but how much did it help with figuring out the more difficult parts? And did it produce utter nonsense when it was too confusing?

[pillowbaker]

Discussion continued. Potential spoilers in spoiler tag, rest of discussion laid out in the open.

Final questions: Whisper helped with the subtitle structure, but how much did it help with figuring out the more difficult parts? And did it produce utter nonsense when it was too confusing?

Well ghost was right, and I was impressed with how much whisper was able to figure out, and it did indeed clarify some passages, like "waiting for someone to cross me", however, it completely missed many of the trouble areas. It also missed some more simple areas. Examples.

- Can't whistle with fingers --> I can't miss one of the things either.
- This lady --> a slidey comes by
- And she's copying everything I saw --> And she's crapping everything I say
- Mum's thinking I don't need a bedtime story --> Mum's done peaking and I don't need a bedtime spree. (a second attempt made "Mums don't peep in and I don't need a bed transfer.")

But this is routine for whisper. It did very well, but we would still have to deliberate over the garbled areas.

Spoiler: Are you trolling me? She was not upset at all! She was annoyed at being pestered by questions and saw an opportunity to get revenge, delighted all the while! The gleeful grin she has when she recounts the potentially thuggish fella noticing her being "bovvered" tells it all. As you noted, her parents are less than gentle, and she likely knows her neighbors are much the same. That lady is in the WRONG neighborhood. Certainly not trolling; your interpretation here is quite good and makes sense. It is good how certain things can be up to one's imagination. I did interpret her behavior differently. I perceived the girl as overall being ignorant of who the surveyor was and what exactly the she was doing, and also ignorant about how her actions were gathering attention. The girl wasn't shy towards the lady, but was annoyed by how she felt like she was being tested. I think this is what set her off on her outburst of what'd been bothering her, once the lady asked the relevant question. Her friends are switching. Things are unhappy at home. Her sister is a pest. I saw her as not being able to understand that her speech had gathered a mob, and she seemed uncertain why the lady became nervous, yet the girl was also unconcerned about the lady's predicament. Anyways, I'm glad she made the speech and let it all out, at least for that moment. I myself was riveted by her words! It's like it was some sort of Shakespearian motivational. It's like this (I made this for anyone who made it this far): Spoiler: [Image] [Image] [Image] [Image] [Image] [Image] [Image] [Image] [Image] [Image] [Image] Follow your spirit, and upon this charge Cry "God for Harry, England, and Saint George!" Makes me want to besiege a phone call solicitation center!

I'm glad someone agrees to drop the quotation marks. You nailed it when you mentioned SE tries to make you inundate the subs with quotes and ellipses. With the Fix Common Errors, it wanted me to switch every dash with ellipses and more ellipses.

NOW DEAR FRIENDS, please take these subs and watch. As Night put it, now we can force you to understand it!

[Night457]

Well ghost was right

I've noticed he usually is.

Loved your screenshots! With such a dramatic presentation, you are even convincing me on the part I was not sure about! I guess I can be manipulated and drawn into battle with a good speech just like anyone else.

[pillowbaker]

During the analysis of media, I very much appreciate varying opinions and interpretations. Most often, they help me decide on an interpretation of my own. Often enough, it seems I am not as quick at understanding character motivation and thematic significance and formulating ideas. So I hope I am not coming off as pushy for my idea. I do like the insidious little girl explanation.

As a matter of fact, I would like to make another adjustment for the subs, following your advice, and fix the quotes, the three line passage, and the Mum's drinking/thinking part, which has a typo anyway.

OMG I just figured out SE has a dark theme. Check it! Dunno about you guys, but I'm a dark theme kinda guy.

[Night457]

I need everything on a computer or phone screen blazingly bright (by other's standards) for me to see it clearly. I also need 150watt or higher light bulbs shining directly on the paper for me to read a book.

Anyway ... my understanding of character motivation derives mostly from my cynicism and misanthropy. Take that for what it is worth.

Here is what I think about girls crying:

• If she cries alone, she is most likely upset.
• If she cries with another person, she might be manipulating him.
• If she cries in public, she is putting on an act / making a scene / begging for attention.

This applies to any female human in the post-verbal stage of development. After all, babies don't even count as human.

I totally agree with you about the girl not understanding what the lady was doing or what she wanted. She only understood that she found her annoying and that she had plenty of her own problems that she was thinking about instead, and these questions about bubblegum were stupid. I noticed that she did not start bawling until after the crowd had gathered. She may be young, but she is no fool, and she probably intuits the potential danger of a mob for a stranger. They are, after all, HER neighbors. If she got their attention then she had better make sure they are on HER side, so she played the victim, pretending the strange lady had been mean to her and got her all upset. The girl has numerous complaints mostly stemming from her perceived powerlessness at school and at home. She suddenly had a chance to get people to do what SHE wanted and maybe get a little of her own back against a pest. (Of course all she really needed to do was tell the lady to F*** off.)

That's my cynical view.